quikchange: Kefir >>

Tony (

quikchange) wrote,
@ 2005-10-29 22:02:00

Current mood:	jubilant
Current music:	Tegan & Sara - Superstar
Entry tags:	anecdote, culture, philosophy

Kefir >> milk
Ever since I was a kid I have been unable to drink plain white cow milk without suffering from a powerful urge to throw up. I'm not lactose intolerant because if I add a strong flavour to the milk I can drink it with no ill-effects. So for years I drank chocolate milk to get the calcium that it seemed was best absorbed from milk. That's actually how I ended up with the nickname QuikChange.

However, in the summer of 2003 I got a cold and my chest filled with phlegm. I don't generally get sick and I'm not a fan of taking medication unless absolutely necessary so I simply ignored the cold for a few days until my immune system vanquished it. The problem was that the phlegm didn't leave with the infection. It made me cough all day, which was very annoying. I was even having trouble sleeping at night and was forced to resort to taking NyQuil. It was a sad situation that went on for almost a month.

Then I went to visit shade_42's mom while in Montreal for a weekend. Upon hearing of my plight, she suggested that I discontinue drinking milk for a few days as it tends to prolong pulmonary congestion. I did as she suggested and in a few days I stopped coughing. At this point I was so relieved not to have my lungs filled with phlegm that I developed a reluctance to drink milk again. When I mentioned this to my vegan friend Caro she told me that milk is not really a very good source of calcium anyway and encouraged me to stop drinking it. And so I switched to drinking soy milk instead.

But a_chatterbox periodically warned me that I wasn't getting enough calcium by avoiding milk. And she's in SciBiz so she knows about that sort of stuff. For a long time I couldn't figure out what to do, with my granola-eating tree-hugging hippie/vegan friends telling me to continue avoiding milk and my biology-steeped dairy-industry-influenced friends telling me I needed to drink milk to get my RDI of calcium. Even the Carrotine Kid was perplexed.

But this weekend I discovered Lifeway kefir, which seems to solve most of my problems by providing a healthy source of calcium that I actually enjoy drinking and is produced from the milk of cows treated with love and respect. canoe_drew had actually introduced me to kefir back in 2003 but I hadn't thought of using it as a source of calcium until I saw the label advertising it as such in the grocery store today.

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tangbu
2005-10-30 08:03 am UTC (link)

I've had the milk argument with many people. Cow's milk is the perfect food for calfs, not humans. In my opinion milk's a good source of fat & allergies including congestion, but little else. The best thing you can say for milk is that the various dairy boards have done an excellent job of brainwashing us into thinking it's good for us.

If you like the taste, sure go ahead & drink it. If you're looking for calcium, try fish or leafy green vegetables.

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	quikchange 2005-10-30 02:28 pm UTC (link)
	Fish, eh? I do like fish but I didn't know that fish meat had calcium in anything approaching abundance. Does it matter what sort of fish I eat or are they all high in calcium? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tangbu 2005-10-31 05:05 am UTC (link)
	IIRC it was canned salmon (the bones) but your research indicates sardines, probably for the same reason. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Humans relationship with cows
(Anonymous)
2006-03-15 02:06 am UTC (link)

Some groups of humans have formed a symbiotic relationship with cows. These humans have evolved with cows for thousands of years, caring for them when they become sick, helping them raise their young, protecting them from predators, and also drinking their milk. They help the cows survive and the cows provide them with life sustaining milk. Milk is especially sacred to humans in areas that have plentiful ruminate foods, but scarce humanoid foods. Milk is the perfect food for these humans.

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mumontherun
2005-10-30 10:10 am UTC (link)

i concur.
i've had kefir, it is yummy...but its still cow milk.
yogurt and cheese are also tasty and good for you, if you don't go hog-wild. it is already partially processed, so many ppl who can't take milk can take yogurt. and then there's goat's milk (a bit gamey, but more amenable to the human digestive tract.

as an aside, my naturopath discourages the use of soya products, as, for some ppl they are ... mucous-forming. sometimes its hard to know if you're comin' or goin'.

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	quikchange 2005-10-30 02:30 pm UTC (link)
	Technically, kefir doesn't have to be made from cow milk (although the stuff I drink is) but can be made from the milk of goats, soy-beans or coconuts. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ramou 2005-10-30 02:16 pm UTC (link)
	cows treated with love and respect Gilded Cage! Gilded Cage! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	quikchange 2005-10-30 02:31 pm UTC (link)
	I don't have an inherant moral problem wirth drinking cow milk. It only bothers me that cows are fed corn and pumped full of antibiotics. Free-range cows being used for beef or dairy is fine with me. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ramou 2005-10-30 02:33 pm UTC (link)
	hehe. I was just commenting on the love and respect. I agree with your position, in principle. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jbdeboer 2005-10-31 06:39 am UTC (link)
	That is really funny. Ever thought that cattle need a balanced diet too? Feeding them only hay will make them skinny and sickly. Don't worry, 'free-range' and 'grass-fed' are just marketting terms to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about paying twice as much for you food. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	quikchange 2005-10-31 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	I guess that depends on the implementation. Some farms do feed their cown a balanced diet, assuming they aren't outright lying. But that doesn't mean they all do. However, food labelled organic must meet fairly strimgent standards. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jbdeboer 2005-11-01 10:18 pm UTC (link)
	I didn't bother reading your linked sources. The first looks like a commerical farm website, and is likely just marketting (whether or not it supports my claims). The second is hosted by a 'eco-terrorism' group (COK), and should be disregarded on that alone. (Reply to this)(Parent)

a_chatterbox
2005-10-30 02:46 pm UTC (link)

Lots of foods have calcium IN them. The issue is how much of that calcium can our bodies absorb. I don't think the percentage from milk is especially high. But I know it's easier for me to drink a couple of glasses of milk a day, than eat a bowlful of broccoli everyday. If I could find an inexpensive alternative to milk that would provide my body with calcium I would try and fit it into my daily routine. Good on you for finding something that works, and if you have time for research, look into how much of a product's calcium is absorbable by your body. And then let me know. :D

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quikchange
2005-10-30 03:33 pm UTC (link)

Alright, I did a little research and discovered some interesting but disheartening facts:

Adults need to absorb a gram of calcium each day to prevent bone loss.
We require vitamin D to absorb calcium. We normally get this from the sun but people who don't get enough sun (brown people who are indoors during the winter afternoons in northern climates, for instance) need to take supplements. Most processed milk already has vitamin D added to it but other sources of calcium generally do not.
Fish (particularly sardines) are only high in calcium if you eat the bones too. However, calcium from animal bone tends to contain lead, which is bad.
Leafy green vegetables (like spinach) are fairly high in calcium but also contain oxalic acid, which inhibits absorption.
Another inhibitor, phytic acid, is contained in the hulls of cereal grains, which would otherwise be another decent source of calcium. For this reason, calcium-fortified white-bread is actually a fairly easily-absorbed source of calcium.
tofu can be a good source of calcium but only if it is eaten without being cooked.
calcium fortified OJ and soy-milk can serve as decent substitutes too.
A high-fibre diet seems to inhibit calcium absorption too. This applies more to fibre from bran than that in fruits and veggies though so it is best to get your fibre from there instead.
Having too much protein (especially the sort found in eggs) can actually lower the calcium levels in your blood. But baked beans provide more calcium than the protein in them removes.
A diet very low in fat can reduce calcium absorption significantly.
The caffeine in most pop and all coffee severely inhibits calcium absorption as does the phosphorous in pop (so don't drink Coke with your meals).
Our bodies seem to absorb more calcium when we lead active lives that put a reasonable amount of stress on our bones.
We also need a lot of magnesium to build strong bones and we get far less of that then we do calcium because there is very little of it in dairy products.
A low pH (acidic) balance in the stomach helps calcium absorption, especially when it is produced by HydroChloric acid.
Large quantities of sucrose and table salt also inhibit calcium absorption so try to get your salt intake in a meal that does not contribute much to your calcium intake and don't eat dessert for a couple of hours following a calcium-rich meal.
We get diminishing returns on calcium absorption relative to the amount we consume in a single meal. Therefore, it is better to spread our your calcium intake over multiple meals than to get most of it in a single one.

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a_chatterbox
2005-10-30 03:39 pm UTC (link)

Good work!
All this from reliable sources, I trust?
Well, I'll stick with my klim for now, and kefir works for you? Yay calcium!
Seriously, studying biology you realize how much your body relies on calcium for lots of little random, important things. And since your body can get calcium from your bones, you'd best be replacing that calcium. Especially if you're a little person and don't want to get osteoporosis.

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	It was on the Internet so it must have been true... quikchange 2005-10-30 03:44 pm UTC (link)
	I used multiple sources and checked that they weren't commercial interests. I gave high weight to university research labs, followed by government health depts. If several non-profit health orgs agreed than I gave them high weight too. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: It was on the Internet so it must have been true...

kinthelt
2005-10-30 04:13 pm UTC (link)

I was going to make a few comments like those. However, the intersection between what I was going to post and what you posted was very small (mine being a subset of yours).

Very well done! That should get both sides of the argument to tone down somewhat. :) Though when you look at the facts, it does tend to suggest that milk (any variety) is the best source of calcium.

I usually don't listen to vegan arguments. I've met too many vegans.

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	Re: It was on the Internet so it must have been true... quikchange 2005-10-30 04:25 pm UTC (link)
	Haha. Yeah, yoghurt is actually the single best source of calcium. But don't forget about that magnesium! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	shade_42 2005-10-30 04:37 pm UTC (link)
	Kefir has always been a guilty pleasure of mine because it was really tasty, really expensive milk near as I was concerned. Now cheese is the same thing, really tasty and really expensive. I take multivitamins, and just try not to eat too much crap. So far so good. (Reply to this)

2much_thinking
2005-10-30 04:48 pm UTC (link)

have you considered going to a doctor and having a series of tests done to determine if there is a certain substance in the milk, that's not in the other versions of milk or has been processed out in the yogurt, that you are allergic to?

When I was young they suspected me of being allergic to milk and I went on about five different formula's of milk. None made a difference. I was not allergic to milk or if I was it was something in that particular batch of milk or the allergy left.

That happens too, allergies can come and go and you never know why.

Also, perhaps you lack a specific enzyme for digesting a specific particle in milk. Again, after visiting a gastro-specialist in 1994 they found that I was missing an enzyme (what I forget and what it was for I also forget) and that was partly the reason for my feeling ill all the time (stomach wise). However, I realized stress was a huge factor, taking what the little enzyme was not doing for me and amplifying it by a factor of 10 or more.

Also, milk products and milk and sugar, all combine to thicken the mucus in your body. Hence why you have large problems breathing, the phlegm is too damn thick to caugh up. When you have a cold you are supposed to drink clear fluids and avoid dairy products, as it only thickens the mucus which is attempting to bring up whatever infection you have.

If you didn't have an infection persay, you may actually have chronic bronchitis and the milk thickens the mucus and hence why it lasts for so long and "clears" when you stop drinking milk.

Again, I'd visit a doctor or two when you come home, stop at a clinic and get yourself checked out. That taxes you've paid for the past X years say you are entitled to the health care so take advantage of it!

Oh, and don't drink Coke with my meals? What about Pizza? Coke and Pizza are like the perfect mix for me. I'll drink a glass of milk later or earlier, but the Coke I can't give up! You don't want to live forever do you? Imagine gas prices if you ate healthy and avoided all the bad things in life and kept in shape. You could be 120, complaining to some 20 year old gas station attendent about how when you were 25 gas prices were still under a dollar, not 31.415926535897932384626433832795 dollars per Pietre.

Note: a Pietre is a litre equivalent, but much larger, when I get my way in the future and we abolish the 10-based SI unit system to a Pi-based system :P The US will have just fully integrated to the metric system by that time though (ha ha ha) so another hundred years is required before they migrate to the Pi-based system.

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quikchange
2005-10-30 04:58 pm UTC (link)

This Pi-based system is intriguing. I've always been a fan of radians...

I don't drive so I don't really pay that much attention to gas prices, except to see how much of a surplus the Albertan gov't has run up each year. Besides, biking is good for your boneses.

I'm not allergic to anything in milk. I know this because I can drink it if I add chocolate syrup to it, without having to remove anything from it. Hell, I'm not allergic to anything and never have been. I didn't even believe in allergies until a couple of years ago!

Chronic bronchitis, as you describe it, sounds more feasible, but wouldn't I always feel like crap if I had that?

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	2much_thinking 2005-10-30 10:57 pm UTC (link)
	no, it flares up like hemroids :P (Reply to this)(Parent)

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