Tony ([info]quikchange) wrote,
@ 2005-06-21 06:38:00
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Current mood: curious
Current music:Less Than Jake - Bad Scene And A Basement Show
Entry tags:culture, philosophy

Meat! Is it evil?
I skipped out on most of Toast Talk last night because I had to study but I had a few thoughts about the topic: should we all stop eating meat?

Historically (over the past few millennia), societies that engaged in animal husbandry for consumption (specifically the rearing of cattle, poultry, swine and sheep) enjoyed a distinct competitive advantage against other societies because these livestock provided them with a high-protein diet. In recent decades, however, several things have changed. Globalization has been effectively turning the planet into a single giant interdependent economy in which any society can use the products created by any other society. And the human population explosion has meant that grazing is not as viable an approach to feeding livestock as it once was; instead we now resort to giant commercial farms to produce the enormous quantity of meat we consume.

One of the side-effects of having had meat as a status symbol and competitive advantage is that we tend to crave and enjoy it in much the same fashion as we do sugar (because fructose was once a competitive advantage). However, our bodies are not particularly good at self-restraint, leading to us consuming far more of such things (sugar, fat and meat) than we require; often more than our bodies can deal with in a healthy manner. Furthermore, the burgeoning levels of meat consumption have been taxing our natural environment as we push its resources increasingly further in the quest for meat.

Nevertheless, dropping meat from our diets altogether seems a bit drastic. Although it is possible to obtain all the nutrients, calories and protein we require without needing to consume meat (although we would still need dairy products for vitamin B12), it is clear that most people are not about to give up on meat anytime soon. Furthermore, abandoning meat in one fell swoop would have disastrous consequences on the livestock markets. A more pragmatic approach would be to reduce our meat consumption to a fraction of its current levels over the span of a few years. Many people have already done this.

How might such a plan be encouraged? Promoting quality over quantity would be one solution: we could eat only grain-fed or free-range livestock. These cost more so they impose an automatic dampening effect on meat consumption at both a personal and macro-economic level. In addition, they are a healthier source of meat. Organizations attempting to promote a reduction in meat consumption could help out by educating people about the advantages of grain-fed and free-range livestock, as well as providing information on how to replace meat with other sources of the same nutrients and protein.



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starinthesky15
2005-06-21 12:03 pm UTC (link)
In general, I don't disagree with the practice of eating meat itself. I have actually heard people say that it is bad for you, and with this I do disagree. Before the times of hunter-gatherers, human ancestors were scavengers, and then later began hunting. If meat was really bad for us, then these people would have died long ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
On the other hand, I don't particularly agree with a lot of the practices that go along with eating meat these days, factory farming being one of them. Your free range grain fed idea is intriguing, although I haven't had time or really the background to consider real alternatives to the system we have now.
On the other hand, something else I don't like is how cows are fed food that could easily be fed to people. Meat is good for protein but little else, it hardly offers the kind of energy that non-meat foods do.
And you are right: nobody is going to give up eating meat anytime soon. Especially me. I love that tender rare steak. I don't have many these days. Probably a good thing, all in all.

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[info]ramou
2005-06-21 01:04 pm UTC (link)
... Those people DID die long ago... Don't forget what their average lifespan was, either.

Meat offers the same kind of energy as the equivalent amount of carbs, it just takes a bit more processing to get at it.

Lots of people are giving up eating meat all the time, even those who love their steak.

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[info]jstew
2005-06-23 12:09 am UTC (link)
uh... yes, they did die, but if meat weren't good for them... you know what? I don't want to argue this.

Meat does not offer the same amount of energy as something at a lower trophic level. It can't.

Lots of people are giving up meat, and there are also lots of people who aren't.

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[info]ramou
2005-06-23 06:54 pm UTC (link)
HAHA... *AHEM*

protein, pound for pound, offers the same caloric value as carbs, if I recall correctly from my cegep level fitness course.

I'm not sure what you mean by meat being unable to "offer the same amount of energy as something at a lower trophic level". A ton of feathers weighs as much as a ton of lead. Undoubtedly you'll clarify what you meant.

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[info]theenforcer
2005-06-21 04:12 pm UTC (link)
Cows are fed shitty grain, that you wouldn't even make into things like bread. At least, on the factory farms they're so worried about they are.

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Cannibal Cows
[info]tangbu
2005-06-22 09:55 am UTC (link)
I have heard that the meat industry has a habit of making use of the offal from one generation of animals to produce the next. In other words, they grind up bones and other non-saleable portions of sheep say, and mix it in with the feed given to cows. People are theorizing that this is how such diseases as mad cow have transferred between species. Bear in mind that I don't have any evidence of this, but it makes sense when you think about it, and I can see the food industry doing something like this. Kind of puts you off your burger.

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Re: Cannibal Cows
[info]theenforcer
2005-06-22 03:04 pm UTC (link)
I've heard the same thing, actually. So, like, hiya.

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[info]tangbu
2005-06-22 09:57 am UTC (link)
Eating meat is not bad for you. Eating too much meat is bad for you. And too much is a lot less than most people think.

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[info]angie_spuc
2005-06-21 01:27 pm UTC (link)
as per b12, most cereals and soy milks are enriched.

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[info]ramou
2005-06-21 01:33 pm UTC (link)
B12 is very photosensitive (soy milk probably not affected here, cereal may be), and many supplements aren't actually as effective at providing B12 as advertised.

That said, some of the enriched stuff DOES do a good job (as far as I've read), but it's best to be very careful in determining which. A doctor who specializes in veggie/vegans might have a good idea about what's right.

As I am noticing reading up on this stuff, many of the vegan-veggie-types now posting authoritatively have sketchy references and are fanatics, so I feel uncomfortable taking everything they say as fact.

I am not a fanatic, just curious, and at times mildly argumentative.

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[info]theenforcer
2005-06-21 04:13 pm UTC (link)
As a matter of fact, I made exactly that argument (the sketchy references/fanatics one) last night at Toast Talk. There may be good information available on the subject, but it's filtered through a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth animal rights activists until it all starts to look a little too fuzzy for my tastes.

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[info]ramou
2005-06-22 05:19 am UTC (link)
good to be validated.

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B12
[info]ramou
2005-06-21 01:28 pm UTC (link)
Can't underestimate the value of B12:

If B12 deficiency occurs, DNA production is disrupted and abnormal cells called megaloblasts occur. This results in anaemia. Symptoms include excessive tiredness, breathlessness, listlessness, pallor, and poor resistance to infection. Other symptoms can include a smooth, sore tongue and menstrual disorders. Anaemia may also be due to folic acid deficiency, folic acid also being necessary for DNA synthesis.

B12 is also important in maintaining the nervous system. Nerves are surrounded by an insulating fatty sheath comprised of a complex protein called myelin. B12 plays a vital role in the metabolism of fatty acids essential for the maintainence of myelin. Prolonged B12 deficiency can lead to nerve degeneration and irreversible neurological damage.
(http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html)

Note that the neurological problems of B12 deficiency can take up to 5 years to manifest.

Reading a vegan's desciption of fatigue, listlessness and dizziness always makes me nervous. B12 is an easy and obvious culrpit. However, since there aren't many non-good B12 supplements (some B12 supplements actually aren't useful... go figure).

Skimming web pages about B12 seems to indicate that one need to have a fairly regular intake of B12, meaning that forcing down a glass of milk once a week isn't going to actually help.

It took me a bit longer to find a list of sources of B12 by content (since all the vegan/veggie sites kept coming up, and they weren't gonna mention meat :P) http://www.somersetmedicalcenter.com/16456.cfm

Dairy products do contain B12, but in much smaller amounts. Namely, about 20% as much as fish, 50% as much as red meat. That's a key thing, fish and red meat seem to be where it's at (clams/oyster too :P).

While I've been dropping red meat from my diet, I'm actually trying to get in more fish (I also probably hit the dairy a bit more than the average person, that was encouraged in my family, even though half of us were lactose intolerant).

In addition, while not mentioned in too many places, and I can't find my source again, those who do intense physical training require more B12. If you are a vegan, you're a bit screwed there. It was actually advised that you see a doctor to try to work something out with supplements, etc. otherwise you'd probably not do too well. I suppose there aren't that many well known vegan weightlifters, but it's something to keep in mind.

It seems reasonable to suggest that having small portions of fish or red meat 3 times a week is probably a good idea (keep in mind that grain-fed and free-range are sort of mutually exclusive... just clarifying what you said). That, or being damn careful with supplements (which essentially are getting the B12 from a meat product somehow... bacteria produced in meat). As far as I can tell, this is probably one of the healthier approaches. I may personally end up giving up at least red meat altogether, but I'll keep my fish tyvm (mmmm... sushi).

Of course, eating fish that don't come from fish farms is also probably wise.

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Re: B12
[info]tangbu
2005-06-22 10:04 am UTC (link)
I gave up red meat over twenty years ago, and it's not particularly difficult. I'm a bit concerned about the antibiotics I'm eating with my poultry, but unwilling to go all the way to full vegetarianism - I know too many self-described "lazy vegetarians" who've developed serious health problems from having an unbalanced diet.

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[info]folkstone
2005-06-21 02:02 pm UTC (link)
Well, I know that I don't plan on giving up meat anytime soon. This freerange idea is interesting however. Much closer to how things used to be.

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[info]ramou
2005-06-21 02:03 pm UTC (link)
There used to be more range to be free in per capita (where we're counting the animals, not the people) :(

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Meat is delicious
(Anonymous)
2005-06-22 02:01 am UTC (link)
See http://www.nekothekitty.net/cusp/daily.php?date=030523 for details.

Although, I will agree with Graeme that the quality of feed and housing has been rather dismal. So I've been sticking with meat from local farms (and not giant corporate farms)..

JC

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